Monday, July 11, 2005

Lets talk about the status of causality!

In our philosophical understanding of the world, we have to juggle two contradictory notions of causal relationships. These two notions are determinism and indeterminism. A deterministic framework implies the neccessary connection of causes and effects into a linear chain. In this chain, every effect has a (temporally) antecedent cause, so effects without causes are not allowed. An indeterministic framework implies nothing more than that there may be effects without causes.

We need the deterministic framework if we are to theorize about the world, that is, insofar as reality IS deterministic, it can be captured by theory. This is clear if we notice that most theories (like physics, etc.) provide causal explanations. Insofar as the world IS indeterministic, it will be ungraspable by theory, since we cannot provide a causal explanation for a phenomenon consisting of uncaused effects.

We do need indeterminism to make sense of the notion of a volition, act, or choice. If the phenomenon I identify as a 'free' choice is in reality caused by antecedent conditions that extend back in a causal chain to a point prior to my existence, then I must concede that I really had no choice in the matter. My illusion of choice is really just a little part of the great cosmic domino chain.

So which one wins out? I'll only say this: If we ascribe to reality an indeterministic structure, we can then explain the emergence of approximately deterministic systems which we experience and study (scientifically). This explains how we can have free will and still live in a comprehensible, pattern following world, with relationships between things intuitively graspable by its inhabitants. If we assume that reality is deterministic in structure, there seems to be no explaination for the emergence of indeterministic phenomenon.

6 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent post Kevin.

Now guess how I'd respond. Then I'll really think you're smart :)

On to other things, did you notice the link I posted on your last thread to logically fallacies? What'd you think?

Looks like this weekend is the Lydon smackdown. Have you talked to him about it yet?

-Nodar out.

P.S. I'm getting to the middle ages in Russell's book. Good times.

9:07 PM  
Blogger Huge Larry said...

Is it not possible that all the phenomena we currently assume to be indeterministic may actually be deterministic yet governed by laws with such complexity that we have yet to understand them?

Regarding the emergence of seemingly deterministic behavior in an indeterministic world. It's my understanding that the kind of indeterminism in our universe can be bounded by probability, and therefore it can be contained and understood to some extent.

Since these bounded uncertainties happen on such a microscopic scale, it is understandable how the amalgamation of these small uncertainties can exhibit deterministic behavior when viewed from a bigger perspective. But getting back to my first point, you can never truly say that these small particles exhibiting seemingly random behavior are not somehow controlled by a deterministic black box behind the scenes which we don't know about yet.

10:30 AM  
Blogger Taint Montgomery said...

First off, I went to that Anti-Scientology website (Clambake, great name) and had a grand ol time. I love the photocopies of L R Hubbards handwritten OT papers. I don't love their abuse of the term science, though.

Matt Lydon's pre-wedding debauchery spectactular (MLPWDS, aka bachelor party) will be attended by me. I think we better spend a couple days this week fasting and repenting in advance for the sins we shall this weekend commit.

Back to causality: Co is right, we could very well have seemingly indeterministic systems (eg. humans making choices) emerging from a deterministic reality. Of course, these systems wouldn't really be indeterministic, and since we're assuming reality is fundamentally deterministic, our (deterministic) theories could, in principle, capture the phenomenon of human behavior. This requires dispensing with the notion of free will, which is actually quite difficult to do (in the sense of maintaining logical consistency)...

If we assume reality is indeterministic, we can retain an approxamatly deterministic cosmology while retaining the notions of free will for the agents within this cosmos. I like that.

Unfortunatley, there is no way to scienctifically prove either of these positions, since they are metaphysical presumptions about the physical world. I also just noticed that what I've said here is darn near identical with the content of the original post.

12:30 PM  
Blogger Huge Larry said...

Even if you jump on the indeterminism bandwagon you don't necessarily get to take a bite out of the tasty free will pie. Indeterminism does allow for the possibility of free will, but it doesn't imply it directly. The probability that free will exists inside a given indeterministic universe is something about which it is very hard to debate.

Unless you believe that we are somehow consciously involved in resolving the indeterminism, then you must accept the fact that being part of an indeterministic system means nothing where free will is concerned. I suppose that the religious, or spiritual, view would be to say that “God” lives inside that indeterministic grey area.

Even if we were able to create an experiment where it seemed as though human will was guiding reality, you couldn't be sure that the information wasn't actually flowing in the opposite direction, meaning that it wasn't actually the will of the person to make reality such a way, but rather reality was such a way and it fed back into the brain as the perceived result of will.

I guess the real point of this argument is that the true nature of free will, like all other things worth talking about, is unknowable. Only if we were to somehow prove that the world was totally deterministic could we say that free will does not exist, and on the other side I see no way to ever prove that it does. So, the skeptics have more ammunition it seems. Of course, that’s assuming that it is absolutely provable whether or not the world is deterministic.

I don’t think it is, because there’s always the possibility that you could come across some strange, new indeterministic phenomena that you were not aware before which shatters your nice little deterministic set of laws.

Agnosticism... it’s what’s for dinner.

7:09 PM  
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10:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin, call me before Matt's thing. It's important:
805-570-4040
831-638-1805

Radon

3:08 PM  

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